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Let's assume that it plays and sounds equivalent to a $6,000.00 mandolin. Is it worth $2,000 or still $200?

OK, it is not a guitar, but I am looking at a $400 Seagull with perfect binding and rosette, burst finish is excellent and the frets are nicely done. Fit and Finish seems basic to me, even for bargain instruments.

_________________
"Building guitars looks hard, but it's actually much harder than it looks." Tom Buck

I'll wait untill i finished a few F5s before i judge this poor fellow's workmanship!

[QUOTE=Mario] I actually see quite a lot of that(going for broke, with all the good stuff and bling, but too early and before you have the 'chops' to pull it all off) from many of you here.

Been there, learned from that, also.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you on this point, mostly. However, many of us are amateurs who are developing our skills making only a few instruments per year. Therefore, one instrument will probably have several features in it that the builder is trying for the first time. Some of those features will work while others won't. The down side is that you never build a really clean instrument. The up side is that your learning.

I strongly agree that it is heartbreaking to see what some guys do to a master grade set of wood when their first builds are loaded with poorly fitted pearl or poorly constructed home-made herring bone. I think people should have reasonable expectations of their ability. You can do a really clean instrument for your first build but it will probably take you seven years to do it. For some, that is the right path. For others, skill only comes with the practice of making lots of instruments quickly.

Herein lies a simple truth. Some folks are building instruments when they should be doing something else. Or at least they shouldn't be selling them.
The lack of quality shown in the pictures of that instrument reminds me more of the concept of "homemade" as opposed to "handmade".
I agree with everyone here. If you're going to put something you've made out there for sale, at any price point, it should be as cleanly executed as possible. If you can't do that, you simply shouldn't be selling them.
I think this is why there is wisdom in building with simple inexpensive materials until you really have developed your chops to a level that is not just sellable, but also clean and defect-free. Then use the good woods and sell them.
That mando has serious issues. I wouldn't buy it at any price. No offense intended.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

If you want perfect cosmetics, you can get a Collings for about four times
the price of this instrument. To suggest that an individual could match
Collings workmanship and beat the price is asking a lot, to say the least.

A retail price of two grand for a full F-5 style instrument with all the binding,
inlay and coloring is so cheap that I'm surprised anyone could do it at all, let
alone more neatly.

Not low end? Maybe not for commercially made things, but for a hand
carved instrument that's way below low end in my book. I think the maker's
comment is right on the money - willing to take it back, and blunt about the
price point.

_________________
Cheers,

Frank Ford

FRETS.COM
HomeShopTech
FRETS.NET

I might suggest that the builder, bless his heart, not give up his day job just yet.npalen38972.4626851852

There is a school of "sloppy" out there-you wouldn't know it existed by looking at all the beauifully crafted instruments exhibited on this forum.
Obviously most of the people here are from the "anything worth doing -is worth doing well" school.
My fourth mandolin(over 20 years ago) was an F-5 and I am still proud of the craftsmanship to this day.
Some people are just not capable of doing better work-and some just don't care.
That mandolin looks like it was finished with a corn broom!

Sorry to be a builder who responds to this thread, but it's important that
we stir some level of accountability in one another. We all sell our
instruments according to our level of skill and the popularity of our tone
and designs and we need to have a sharp awareness of the quality of
what is being offered by other builders in our respective price ranges.
This builder has touted himself as having built more than 100
instruments and it is obvious that it's just not so. Even with 5 or 10
instruments under his belt, he should have been able to achieve much
better results than he has on this mandolin. We need to understand and
remember that our instruments will speak much more to customers who
receive them what we tell them. This one speaks volumes more than his
claim to so much experience. I've built both A and F style mandolins so
I'm posting honestly from real experience with these instruments.

   Our customers have that kind of awareness and expect a guitar to step
up in every respect to hold their own in the price range at which they sell.
With so many great players being able to try and own any number of high
end guitars, we find that this accountability is even more necessary and
expected than ever before. We see alot of players jumping onboard to
order guitars from every young budding builder who shows promise.
They're willing to overlook the shortcomings of the guitars that are
inevitible when they're the early instruments of any builder in order to
enjoy the possibility of owning one of the early guitars from the next
Olson or Ryan and the resale power that can come in years.

    I've heard people talk about their great guitar from a particular builder
that sounds so incredible that they are readily willing to accept novice
quality detailing and a complete lack of attention to things that contribute
to its presentation. These are guitars from builders who have been
building for decades and have well over 100 instruments in the
marketplace in their name. Poor binding and purling fit and mitering,
rough and incomplete finish work, poor fret work and playability are just
a few of the areas that I've seen as being well below the quality that
should be coming out of the shops of such experienced builders, but
they've been around a long time and have enjoyed the praise of a few who
bought instruments from them.

   One of them has even been quoted as saying that he is one of the top
five builders of traditional style instruments in the world. But, as in most
cases, his instruments sing a different song when you have a chance to
see them. He's been known to criticise the work of much more skilled
builders as well.

   If a builder has honed his abilities to a level where he is able to achieve
great tone, he should also have been able to reach similar skill levels
where details like binding and purfling things of that nature are
concerned.

     If good quality wood components are assembled reasonably well and
with even a very generic traditional approach and industry common
dimensions, generally good tone will result. Hence, the popularity of kits
for first time buildrs and the common purchases of prefabricated wood
parts from some of the major shops by small builders for use in their
guitars.

    I teach classes in my shop on building that run one week and every
guitar that has ever come off of a student's bench shows much better
quality than what is being seen here in this builder's work. I teach a
simple class in which we build either a Dreadnaught or OM style guitar
and one of the main points that I stress and to get it right before you
move on.....and if it's not right, take it back off and do it again.

    Even on the finest guitars comng out of the big production houses
being built using close tolerance jigs and fixtures to ensure consistency
you can see, with close inspection, the types of things that just come with
the assembly of parts into an instrment. No guitar is perfect and shouldnt
be expected to be. I just had a guitar here that was built by one of the
most respected builders in the world and cost more than $10K. There
were a few gaps in the binding and purfling that had been filled and
finished over that I would have done again to eliminate, but the customer
is happy and loves the guitar. Sometimes, it's what logo is on the
headtsock that closes the eyes of the player to any flaws that they
wouldn't accept from another builder. Status of ownership has generated
some of this "Emperor's New Clothes" phenomenon when it comes to
guitars.

    I had a local collector bring his $12K prized guitar to my shop for a
truss rod adjustment that had been approved by the builder of the guitar.
While we sat there admiring his purchase, I asked if he wold play it for me
so I could have a listen and he was happy to oblige. After he played his
favorite tune on this treasure, I offered him one of my Grand Concerts
that was ready to ship to its new owner to play the same song on.

    After just a few chords, his face took on a puzzled look, his jaw
dropped and he asked why this guitar was much louder than his and cost
only half as much. I explained,"We just build in different ways and have
put our efforts into the guitars in different ways according to our personal
experience and goals.". He bought a name or logo according to what the
latest endorsement list or magazine ad had told him was best rather than
using his ears. It happens every day but at least he can tell all of his
friends that he has a $12K guitar.   

    I look closely at and listen closely to guitars from any other builders
that I have opportunity to get my hands on and even own a few from
other well known builders because I like the guitars and the people
behind them. there was a time that i had never seen a guitar from a small
shop or solo luthier and had nothing to compare my work to so i needed
to be educated on what should be expected. This isn't a contest or
competition in spite of what some builders have made it. The only
competitive direction we should have is between the guitars we are
building now and those we last completed. We should hope that our
present efforts will be a little better sounding, looking and playing than
our last.

    
This builder just needs to take a step away from selling his instruments
and develop himself as a luthier. Pay a little attention to those details and
be willing to do them again....and again if necessary to get them right
before the customer gets the instrument. Maybe he should consider
selling them for the simple cost of his materials and put his time in as a
student of the craft while having it cost him nothing but that time
investment.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

[QUOTE=Kevin Gallagher]   Sorry to be a builder who responds to this thread, but it's important that we stir some level of accountability in one another...     
This builder just needs to take a step away from selling his instruments and develop himself as a luthier. Pay a little attention to those details and be willing to do them again....and again if necessary to get them right before the customer gets the instrument. Maybe he should consider selling them for the simple cost of his materials and put his time in as a student of the craft while having it cost him nothing but that time investment.[/QUOTE]

Kevin, that's exactly the point. I nearly suggested that he sell them at materials cost to friends who wanted them, but based on the pictures, I wasn't sure I wanted to go that far...

By nature, I'm a perfectionist. It's a brutal way to live. I can never live up to my expectations.
Recently I had a chance to play a guitar I built for a guy a few years back. I hated it. It's great to look at, and really nice to play, but the tone to me was awful. Terrible. He doesn't know it yet, but I'm building a new guitar for him to replace it. If he still wants to keep the old one, fine. But I want a guitar in the hands of a customer that sounds great. I can't let it slide, and I'm willing to do that, especially since he's a friend.

Lesson to be learned...we have to stand by what we build and be willing and prepared to deal with the consequences of our actions.

Another guitar I sold may get a new neck...there's nothing wrong with it, it's just a tad thinner than the customer expected. You just have to do what's right.
Don Williams38972.5219907407

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

deletedharmonist3438979.2760416667

[QUOTE=harmonist34]I DO think that the standard of fit and finish set by relatively inexpensive imported instruments is a reasonable expectation of any handmade instrument beyond someone's first couple attempts.
[/QUOTE]
Andrew, that says it all! You asked and answered your own question.

I would definitely send it back. With so much sloppy work visible, there has to be that much more that's not visible.
A beginner might make one at that level, but if this person has indeed made 100 instruments, and settles for that level of craftsmanship, he obviously doesn't care what he produces.

Ron

_________________
OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

Stallings!

$200.00 still

Mike

Andrew,
   I appreciate your being so gracious in clarifying the difference between
the general pricing tables of guitars and mandolins, but I have built both
and, as I'd said in my previous post, offered my response according to
that experience with both. Guitars and mandolins both have their own
sets of details that place them in their pricing ranges so we're really not
comparing apples and oranges. Quality is qualty, both good and bad on
any front.

When working with bindings that are made of the plastics that are
typical to the industry, a few small trade tricks and "secrets" go a log way
in helping to achieve great results. Believe me, when the overseas shops
produce their very inexpesive F style mondolins that sell for a few
hundred dollars, they execute the binding and purfling application with
much more skill then this builder did. They are still producing them at a
breakneck pace to meet their pricing requirements, but the quality is so
far above what you were expected to accept from a hand craftsman with
100 pr more instruments under his belt that it is something that you
should question.

    The plastic bindings bend easily and are able to be stacked in multi
level binding/purfling pieces that they can be handled as a single piece
and their joints can easily be fused without a seam or with very little
evidence of one using a solvent and the proper glues. There is no
explanationas to why this ended up leaving any builder's bench and
reaching a customer outside of the builder's experience with customers
who either don;t know any better or have much more money to waste on
poor quality nstruments than they should.

    The poor miters or even a lack of miters on those points shouldhave
been corrected. It's not a big job. I highly doubt that the top and back
were hand carved by the builder either, but were probably purchased
precarved from a vendor and assembled.

    The graduation carving of the top and back plates is very critical to the
structural integerity and tone of the instrument and is probably the
process that takes the most time and skill to master. I find it difficult to
imagine that a builder paying so little attention to the detailing of an
instrument and the executon of so many other operations that require
considerably less effort and intuitive input from the builder could pefrom
these more intricate and demanding portions of the build process.

    I am always willing to give the benefit of the doubt in any case, but this
builder charged you $2000.00 for an instrument that should have fallen
closer to the $200.00 price point. We all work hard to reach a place in our
building where we can offer great guitars to our customers at a price that
can help to pay our bills without feeling guilty about the quality of the
instruments that they're receiving for those prices.

    I have a friend who is a known builder and his workmanship is
mediocre at best and even at the beginner level at times. He charges a
rediculous price for his guitars that are very ornately inlaid, but his
customers are players who really don't understand what they are
getting....or not getting, but simply see lots of pearl and abalone like
their favorite artist's guitars have. Many are not accomplished players
who have huge chunks of disposable income and they just want
something with traditional looks and loads of inlay. It doesn't hurt that
the builder chases artists around the country to throw guitars at them for
free in return for the use of their names and likenesses in press and ads.
The power of endorsement is great in any business and the guitar
industry is no different.

    His binding and finish work is very sloppy and his neck sets are
horrendous at times but he gets as much as $15K for a guitar that is, by
no means,one that belongs beside others in that price range.

    Look at what you get in any case, don't expect perfection....from any
builder who uses their hands to create their guitars. The production
houses still produce guitars that can easily be critiqued for imperfections
and small detail shortcomings so why would we expect any better or
different from a guy that doesn't have the R&D and tooling resources that
they do.

    Some of the small things that show that the human hand was allowed
to play a part in the construction of a guitar are the things that add charm
to them as long as they are not detracting from the overall appearance or
presentation of the instrument.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

I'd always thought the point of buying an instrument built by an individual luthier, rather than a factory, was that you were getting an instrument in which someone has really sweated the details - instead of mass producing them to meet a deadline. Shouldn't building an instrument that at least LOOKS as good as a factory-made one be the minimum requirement from a luthier who's going to sell their work for a profit?

I've never seen a factory-built instrument of any kind that poorly built.

I will just slightly disagree with that Tony. I have played many hand crafted instruments sold at or near mid-high end factory rates 1.5K to 2K that may not have had as perfect miters everywhere as a factory can produce on a $300 instrument but the detail paid to the construction and tonal vales of the guitar were much higher quality. Quality can be much more than skin deep. That said none of the guitars I mention were as poorly detail as the mandolin shown. But I think it is reasonable to expect that if you pay 2k for a hand crafted instrument that you will not get the detail you get form a master craftsman charging 10k. Even in this craft there are levels of achievements. If the craftsman prices at a rate well below the typical market price, you have to expect that he is honing his or her skill some what, and you may have some small cosmetic flaws. But your right if you can not pull off simple out side miters with minimal fill work you probably should not be selling unless the tonal vale is incredible.

Yessir, there are some tough critics here. Not having the instrument in
hand, I can't even guess about playability, tone, or other featres of its
construction. But, binding comes fairly late in the construction process
so it might be a situation where the builder found himself way over his
head in the time and effort, and started to cut some corners (pun
intended).

Regardless, I still say you can't expect first class detail work for a fraction
of the regular going rate.


FF


"Before you speak ill of a man, walk a mile in his shoes. Then you'll be a
mile away from him and he won't be able to hear a word of it."

_________________
Cheers,

Frank Ford

FRETS.COM
HomeShopTech
FRETS.NET

[QUOTE=Frank Ford] Yessir, there are some tough critics here. Not having the instrument in
hand, I can't even guess about playability, tone, or other featres of its
construction. But, binding comes fairly late in the construction process
so it might be a situation where the builder found himself way over his
head in the time and effort, and started to cut some corners (pun
intended).

Regardless, I still say you can't expect first class detail work for a fraction
of the regular going rate.


FF


"Before you speak ill of a man, walk a mile in his shoes. Then you'll be a
mile away from him and he won't be able to hear a word of it." [/QUOTE]

IMHO it is still unexcusable to charge $2000.00 for an instrument like that.
Even though it is half or one quarter of the going rate,$2000. is a LOT of money where I come from.

Andrew, would you mind posting a pic of the entire instrument? Or at least the entire soundboard area?

Although these defects seem pretty bad, I agree with some of the posts above that close-up shots of anyone's work can make flaws look worse than they might otherwise appear. I'm not trying to defend some of the problems with this instrument, but I would prefer to see something in addtion to detailed close-ups before judging too harshly.Kelby38972.8225

I really do appreciate the great response to this thread. I find myself now in the unexpected position of defending the builder...while I am dissatisfied and I am returning the mandolin, I feel like some of the responses have been off base. This is not a $200 mandolin. It's not a $1000 mandolin. I would place it more or less at the price I paid, which was around $1500.

My problem is that I do not feel that I can sell the mandolin at retail price ($2200) or close to it, which is the whole reason to carry an instrument as a dealer.

The "I'd never let that go out with my name on it" perspective is a valid opinion and one that speaks to the commendable approach of many of the builders here, but this thread has obscured more than it's revealed for me on what actually are reasonable expectations for (relatively) inexpensive handmade instruments. Nobody can afford to put 200 hours of work + materials into a $2000 mandolin. But if you're only putting in 100, what do you do differently or cut out? What if it's 75 hours? At some point you have to say that your time is worth x amount of dollars and price your instruments accordingly....so if your buyer wants a $2000 mandolin instead of a $3000 mandolin, what do you do differently? What percentage of time should go into appearance and what percentage should go into the things that make for good tone?

Anyway, here's a picture of the full front of the mandolin:

harmonist3438972.9183564815

I don't know what reasonable expectations at a particular price point may be. However, using my usual binding setup, and any effort at all, I'd be hard pressed to match that level of ineptitude.I've made 7 F-5s, not 100, but I think that basic competence would insure that your finished results would not be too far removed from the"norm". If you've scraped off half the thickness of the outside binding laminate to level with the sides... well, maybe there's something wrong with your binding rig. If you don't notice, or if that doesn't matter to you... that could be the real problem. I don't buy that you produce results like this simply by rushing.

Andrew, thanks for posting the big picture.

Before posting my thoughts, here's the disclaimer: I don't build professionally. I probably will in the near future, but for now I make instruments for the joy of it. So maybe that impacts my perspective. But with that said, here I go.

Although some of the mistakes on this instrument are a lack of care and time, many are just plain newbie errors. The poor miter joint on the binding is a perfect example. A moderately imperfect miter can be written off as a rush job, but something this bad is a lack of skill, plain and simple. 90% of the builders on this forum would have a difficult time cutting a miter that badly in their sleep, no matter how fast they were going. Likewise, the builder did a very poor job of scraping the binding after the sunburst was applied. It's just plain awful. Doing a good job scraping binding is a matter of technique, and someone with enough experience to have good technique can do a masterful job extremely fast. (If anyone needs to be humbled, watch the lady who scrapes bindings in the video on the Gibson site.) As with many things in lutherie, experience produces both speed and better results.

I seriously question whether the builder has built anything close to 100 instruments. Some of the mistakes I can write off to lack of care and effort, but some look like a lack of skill and experience. Maybe I'm wrong.

As for the question of how you reduce the time you invest in your instruments, that's simple. "Don't" do things. "Don't" use binding with multiple lines, so you don't have to worry about lining up the purfling in the miters. "Don't" do a sunburst, so you don't have to worry about scraping the bindings properly (this builder did a pretty mediocre job of that). "Don't" bind the fretboard. Don't do F-holes, but use a simpler design instead. There are better ways to reduce build time than to do a crappy job.

With all that said, I also agree with Frank --- there's some harsh criticism on this board! In one way, it's refreshing --- usually when people post pics, all you hear are ooohs and ahhhs, and we could probably learn a little more if we got some blunt criticism for a change!!! But then, I'm not sure how many of us have egos that could withstand the kind of scrutiny we are giving this mandolin.   

deletedharmonist3438979.2775347222